September 3rd, 2005

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12:14 am - on criticsm from a college drop out...
I just want you to know, on the extremely off chance that you ever read this, Kanye West, you are my fucking hero...

My favorite part is where NBC issued an official statement apologizing for a celebrity having an unapproved opinion. Assholes.

Its not about whether or not you agree with Kanye. I just want to applaud him for being one man with the courage to speak his fucking mind in a very real way. Kanye, your outburst probably won't accomplish what you want. Bush isn't leaving office anytime soon, and he's term limited, so really he doesn't care about reelection either. And no matter how mad you are, no matter how sickened any of us are, no matter how sad, you can't bring Nawlins back. What you did do is you made a national television outlet admit the hypocrisy of impassioned pleas from actors being paid to read them from a teleprompter. And some people (probably far less than NBC would have you believe) are outraged by you. And 99% of them will probably forget about your statements in a week or two. You'll be at most a footnote, lost in shuffle of one of the most memorable events in our collective history. But I swear I will never forget, Kanye. I will remember what you said, without regard for what anyone thought or what it would mean for your career. I will remember what it meant to me. And I will remember the man cutting you off before you were done and PCing it out. And I thank you.

Big ups to ATL!

Also big ups to Nawlins of course. Ray Nagin, I'm looking in your general direction.

EDIT: Ah ha! This link from the washington post has a total transcript of Kanye's rant. Saved here for posterity:

West and Mike Myers had been paired up to appear about halfway through the show. Their assignment: Take turns reading a script describing the breach in the levees around New Orleans.

Myers: The landscape of the city has changed dramatically, tragically and perhaps irreversibly. There is now over 25 feet of water where there was once city streets and thriving neighborhoods.

(Myers throws to West, who looked extremely nervous in his super-preppy designer rugby shirt and white pants, which is not like the arrogant West and which, in retrospect, should have been a tip-off.)

West: I hate the way they portray us in the media. You see a black family, it says, "They're looting." You see a white family, it says, "They're looking for food." And, you know, it's been five days [waiting for federal help] because most of the people are black. And even for me to complain about it, I would be a hypocrite because I've tried to turn away from the TV because it's too hard to watch. I've even been shopping before even giving a donation, so now I'm calling my business manager right now to see what is the biggest amount I can give, and just to imagine if I was down there, and those are my people down there. So anybody out there that wants to do anything that we can help -- with the way America is set up to help the poor, the black people, the less well-off, as slow as possible. I mean, the Red Cross is doing everything they can. We already realize a lot of people that could help are at war right now, fighting another way -- and they've given them permission to go down and shoot us!

(West throws back to Myers, who is looking like a guy who stopped on the tarmac to tie his shoe and got hit in the back with the 8:30 to La Guardia.)

Myers: And subtle, but in many ways even more profoundly devastating, is the lasting damage to the survivors' will to rebuild and remain in the area. The destruction of the spirit of the people of southern Louisiana and Mississippi may end up being the most tragic loss of all.

(And, because Myers is apparently as dumb as his Alfalfa hair, he throws it back to West.)

West: George Bush doesn't care about black people!

(Back to Myers, now looking like the 8:30 to La Guardia turned around and caught him square between the eyes.)

Myers: Please call . . .

At which point someone at NBC News finally regained control of the joystick and cut over to Chris Tucker, who started right in with more scripted blah, blah, blah.

"Tonight's telecast was a live television event wrought with emotion," parent company NBC Universal said in a statement issued to the Reporters Who Cover Television after the broadcast.

"Kanye West departed from the scripted comments that were prepared for him, and his opinions in no way represent the views of the networks. It would be most unfortunate if the efforts of the artists who participated tonight and the generosity of millions of Americans who are helping those in need are overshadowed by one person's opinion."

EDIT 2: Thanx to jameel for This link to video of Kanye's speech.

Current Mood: [mood icon] impressed
Current Music: Jesus Walks by Kanye West

(40 comments | Leave a comment)

on criticsm from a college drop out... - graffiti.maverick

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[User Picture]From: sexyhockihoochi Date: September 3rd, 2005 - 05:11 am (Link)
I must say that I agree with you! I saw Kayne's speech, as well as the radio broadcasting from the mayor. I stood up and cheered for both, actually.
[User Picture]From: chrismaverick Date: September 3rd, 2005 - 12:46 pm (Link)
yeah, I watched the rebroadcast of the special just to see Kanye's speech, which I was surprised to see they left in its entirity. I like it even better listening to than reading about it. Reading about it, the reporters tried to make him seem like an Angry Black Man(tm) and he wasn't. He was clearly confused and scared and in shock and it was much more real that way.
[User Picture]From: sexyhockihoochi Date: September 3rd, 2005 - 02:52 pm (Link)
Yep, although if I were those people trapped in NO, I would be furious. I'm actually surprised that anyone in the media brought up the race issue because I was sure that was just going to be a "white elephant in the room".
[User Picture]From: chrismaverick Date: September 3rd, 2005 - 02:55 pm (Link)
furious at Kanye? Why? Because you're white and would be trapped?
[User Picture]From: sexyhockihoochi Date: September 4th, 2005 - 05:13 am (Link)
No. lol. You totally read that wrong. I would be furious at the situation, especially the part where the government took 5 days to send help.

There are many different ethnicities and races suffering in LA and MS right now. The "white elephant" I'm talking about is that 30% of the population of NO is under the national poverty line. It's is the poorest city in the United States. And I was saying that the media/politicians are ignoring the fact that many of those under the poverty line are black, a fact that seems to escape media attention when they talk about how people "wanted" to stay(because of course, in our politicians' eyes, EVERYONE had resources to leave...another point of bullshit I'd like to call upon them) yet doesn't escape their attention when people are taking food and supplies from stores.

I'm sure this will make more sense when I bitch in my LJ about the whole situation.
[User Picture]From: chrismaverick Date: September 4th, 2005 - 02:23 pm (Link)
yeah, I agree. As I pointed out, there were a lot of people (like my friend from the previous thread) who didn't really have the opportunity to leave. Also, what's the point of blame. Let's say that all the people who are left in New Orleans are there because they were too stupid to leave when they had the opportunity. Well who the fuck cares? Does that mean they don't deserve support because it was their mistake or their fault? Every person you see interviewed down their lately says the same thing. How can we put as much effort into Iraq as we do and as little in down there. Well, there are about a billion political reasons that I'm going to ignore right now and just point out one thing. No one ever blames the Iraqi problems on them. No one ever points out that if people didn't like the destruction they should just leave. Blame doesn't matter. It doesn't help anyone. People are dead, people are dying... if it makes things easier, lets just say its my fault. Or better, lets blame the terrorirsts. It doesn't really matter. Just go fix it.
[User Picture]From: sexyhockihoochi Date: September 7th, 2005 - 01:23 am (Link)
Yeah exactly. It seems that everyone is pointing the finger somewhere, and unfortunately that isn't helping the victims. There is still so much to be done.

At least there are families in surrounding states that are willing to take people in and help them.
[User Picture]From: chrismaverick Date: September 7th, 2005 - 11:58 pm (Link)
and yet, you can nominate a new supreme court justice before rigor mortis have even set in. Boggles the mind.
[User Picture]From: sexyhockihoochi Date: September 8th, 2005 - 12:07 am (Link)
Did you see what Barbara Bush was saying?;_ylt=AkwRnwDvGMGHRA.2LnUuGUUDW7oF;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

To sum it up, she says the people in shelters are lucky because it's better than what they had before!
[User Picture]From: chrismaverick Date: September 8th, 2005 - 12:18 am (Link)
yep... it made my week... seriously. That was the funniest thing I've heard in ages.

Do you watch the Daily Show with Jon Stewart? I think you'd really enjoy it.
[User Picture]From: sexyhockihoochi Date: September 8th, 2005 - 12:20 am (Link)
Me too!

Yeah sometimes I do. It's truly hilarious.
[User Picture]From: kingdomjames Date: September 3rd, 2005 - 11:19 am (Link)
[User Picture]From: chrismaverick Date: September 3rd, 2005 - 12:54 pm (Link)
yep, I knew he was somehting special the first time I heard Jesus Walks. I don't generally go on about Black pride all that much, not nearly as much as I did when I was about 15 or 16 and really really into it (Umojah, my brothers and sisters). But at this particular moment, I am quite proud of Kanye and what he represents as a voice for intelligent and passionate black people. I am proud to share a racial chromosome marker with him.
[User Picture]From: marmal8 Date: September 3rd, 2005 - 05:19 pm (Link)
...and yet your comment is the kind of comment that really bothers me, because it continues the "Hey! Let's be Black together!" attitude that, though it's very positive about being Black, still draws lines as to who is Black and and who is Not. To me, racism isn't just about having negative stereotypes, but about being divisive. That's why I'm all for multiculturalism, but against _____ History Month. If you celebrate one, you not-celebrate the others.

So, what if a White or Hispanic or Jewish or GLBT person had made the same comments Kanye made? Would anyone even pay attention?
[User Picture]From: ddk Date: September 3rd, 2005 - 05:51 pm (Link)
Maybe you can help me out here....they are your comments.

Please explain to me where saying you are glad/proud to be black is equal to saying a person is racist? Is that what your comments boil down to? Mayb I misread, or I am not getting the point here. So please elaborate on this.

Rather the person is white, brown, yellow, red etc. whatever stating their proud to be of their ethinc groups is NOT on par or equal to being racist. If it was a white person stating they are proud to be white it wouldn't offend me. However if that white person was to then go burn a cross in my front yard with a white hood, then yes I would be offended. As soon anyone else that hates igorance. Don't oversimplify matters, or look at it as being racist.

And black history month......its simple to say yeah the rest of the years we learn and celebrate other races, and learn about them. But, in the history of this nation no other race has been attacked, and prosecuted as much as the black race. That has been pointed out numberous times by blacks AND whites for that matter. Giving us the shortest month of the year was to "help set things right"

Its going to take more than 28 days out of 365 to do that. And the fact that your saying that a person claiming to be proud to be black is equal to that person saying I hate whites, hispanics etc. proves it.
[User Picture]From: chrismaverick Date: September 3rd, 2005 - 06:33 pm (Link)
so I sort of get her point. I know where she's coming from. And I only partially disagree. As I said when I responded to her directly, and as you pointed out. I think there's a huge difference between my statement "I am proud of him as a black man" and being racially divisive. My girlfriend is white, and I frequently proud of her. But its different. Say what you will about me being divisive, but far too often, the african american race, particularly the hip-hop culture which Kanye West represents, gives me more to be ashamed of than proud of. For every Kanye West and Ray Nagin who steps forward and makes me proud of my people, there's going to be another dumbass feud between 50 cent and the Game about ignorant shit. 2 steps forward and one back.

Yes, I realize I called them my people, But the thing is, they are my people. And I mean that in a very real way that is hard for me to explain to someone who hasn't grown up black. Even to members of other minority groups. I can never hope to fully comprehend the jewish or hispanic or white experiences. I am sure there are some nuances that I'll just never get. But non-negroes aren't going to get mine either. Yes that's a seperation, but it isn't artificial. We are different. Because we are. Multiculturalism is about celebrating those differences, because they are very real. Its about acknowledging those differences and being proud of them. It is not about ignoring them and waiting for them to go away.

That is why I am in favor of things like black history month, while I oppose things like affirmative action (at least in the manner in which they currently tend to be implemented). I'm all for teach african american history in schools, but I oppose hate crime legislation.

I salute Kanye for calling attention to a problem, not necessarilly in the most eloquent way, but in an honest way. I dismiss Tucker because, despite obviously having the best meaning intentions, he tried to minimalize it.

Its a big hairy world out there, and its complex. The cultural revolution and fight for civil rights is not over. Its just beginning anew. First there was a civil war. Then was the civil protests of MLK and his contemporaries. If anything, I believe us to now be in a cold war phase of the fight for civil rights, and though it might be a lot more subtle, the events of the last week should remind us that it can be every bit as deadly.
From: (Anonymous) Date: September 4th, 2005 - 12:02 am (Link)
NTB. They are my comments, but you have interpreted them as saying something different. For example, you say that I say "a person claiming to be proud to be black is equal to that person saying I hate whites, hispanics etc. proves it." But I never created any equivalencies. You have oversimplified my point.

Overemphasizing our cultural differences is harmful because it overlooks our similarities. As long as we go around being proud to be whatever race/gender/sexual identity/religion, we are drawing lines between ourselves and others. I find that divisive. Not as divisive as having bigoted hiring practices or lynching people. But divisive, nonetheless.
[User Picture]From: marmal8 Date: September 4th, 2005 - 12:04 am (Link)
Apologies, I forgot to log in.

NTB. They are my comments, but you have interpreted them as saying something different. For example, you say that I say "a person claiming to be proud to be black is equal to that person saying I hate whites, hispanics etc. proves it." But I never created any equivalencies. You have oversimplified my point.

Overemphasizing our cultural differences is harmful because it overlooks our similarities. As long as we go around being proud to be whatever race/gender/sexual identity/religion, we are drawing lines between ourselves and others. I find that divisive. Not as divisive as having bigoted hiring practices or lynching people. But divisive, nonetheless.
[User Picture]From: ddk Date: September 4th, 2005 - 05:51 am (Link)
I never said that you were saying this or that. My first line says to explain it to me. I then went on to give my view on what I thought you said.

There is nothing wrong with being proud of "your people" as long as you don't go telling everyone your race is superior, and others are inferior.

I still love my black people but, I am married to a white female, and my son is mixed. Where does that put me at?
[User Picture]From: marmal8 Date: September 4th, 2005 - 09:27 am (Link)
Part of the problem is that I want to be allowed to take pride in my heritage, too, and not have that be perceived as telling people it is superior. There is a perception that all whites are the same and we know all about them anyway. While I agree that history is written by those in power and that most of the literary canon is by dead white guys, Jewish food is still different than Italian food. Europe is as diverse as Africa, and that gets swept under the rug when we dismiss European culture by claiming we study it all the time. We study history. We don't study culture - anyone's culture - nearly enough.

I teach in a school where the students are 43% Hispanic, 35% South Asian, and 17% black. The only schoolwide cultural celebration assembly we have is for Black History Month, and I find that problematic. As I say to Mav below, I'd rather have a time where we can celebrate everyone at once.

As for your own family puts you wherever you want to be. I would hope that you teach your son about both sides of his heritage and help him to be proud of it all.
[User Picture]From: chrismaverick Date: September 4th, 2005 - 02:13 pm (Link)
Ah, but that's not a flaw with black history month (which does have about a million flaws). It's a flaw with not having a Jewish, Italian, etc celebration. The reasoning behind that is that the white races already get enough attention. I agree with you that its unfair and the wrong way to handle things. However I think there is a right solution other than "ignore it for fear of crossing the line."

In Lorain, Ohio (the city-proper outside of Cleveland, where I grew up) has an international festival every year. Each nationality has a booth where they serve dishes from their native land. They each elect a cute 15 year old girl to be their princess, and she rides in a little parade kinda thing and does a native dance during a presentation kinda thing, and there's a whole big dance that everyone goes to, and stuff like that. I consider that a very positive thing.

I agree there isn't enough study of culture, but the curriculum doesn't mandate it. It does mandate the study of history, and at least where I grew up, we really didn't study black history at all. It was extremely Eurocentric. There were such intentional omissions in history that sometimes it just seemed ludicrous.
[User Picture]From: marmal8 Date: September 4th, 2005 - 03:52 pm (Link)
And see, I would really prefer that we include black and brown and women's and everyone's history and literature in the canon, rather than study it separately. Separate study is better than no study, but to me it's not the optimal solution.

The way education is going right now, it only gets studied if it's on the statewide test. So I guess we have to test about culture. Again, that's a better-than-nothing solution that is far from optimal. Over 50 languages are spoken in Queens - are we going to have a test question about all of them?

I want to do a lot more diversity/cultural/tolerance stuff this year, and I want to do it in a way that doesn't dismiss anyone (including me). So first I have to come to terms with my feelings about things like having the Jewish holidays off, but not the Muslim ones, and having Black History Month but not Latin or Indian.
[User Picture]From: chrismaverick Date: September 4th, 2005 - 05:18 pm (Link)
sure, I'll agree that separate but equal is inherently unequal, but in my opinion the solutions you've advocated so far tend to lead to ignoring the minority studies than including them. I maintain that inclusion will only come through mutual pride. Without racial pride, i feel that we will forget those differences and rather than diversity, we'll simply yield to majority opinion.
[User Picture]From: chrismaverick Date: September 4th, 2005 - 02:15 pm (Link)
right! only I'm superior ... as an individual... the rest of the black people have nothing to do with it!

ah... a moment of levity...
[User Picture]From: chrismaverick Date: September 3rd, 2005 - 06:18 pm (Link)
honestly, I don't think anyone is going to pay attention as it is. Not really, that's my whole point. Its a big deal on NBC today because it just happened last night. Tomorrow, next week, next month, no one is going to really remember. That was my point.

Anyway, you know me well enough. Yes, I'd still feel the same way. Yes I would have paid attention. It wasn't that he was black that made me take notice. It was that he made NBC apologize for allowing unscripted comments. Only then did I bother to go back and see exactly what his comments were. The fact that I happen to agree with them was a complete aside.

Was he calling for a racial division? I don't think so? If anything he was merely pointing out that there is one. He pointed out that these people are being left to die because they're black. At least in his opinion. and frankly, yeah, I agree. If Palm Spring had been flooded the evacuation would have been prioritized and complete in 24 hours. 48 tops. Its not just Kanye. Last night Tucker Carlson, who's about as white and conservative as it gets, had Al Sharpton as his guest and essentially made the same statement. In fact the only bone of contention between Sharpton and Carlson on that issue was that Sharpton says its because they're black. Carlson said it was because they were poor. I actually happen to think they're both right. Being black in this country sucks. Being poor sucks. Being both REALLY sucks. And I think that's what Kanye was getting at.
[User Picture]From: marmal8 Date: September 4th, 2005 - 12:12 am (Link)
Was he calling for a racial division? I don't think so?

No, Kayne was not. He was pointing out one that exists. And for the record, I've seen the pictures where blacks are called looters and whites are just "looking for food" and I agree that there is a problem with the terminology. I don't necessarily think the problem responding to the disaster is racially motivated so much as general stupidity considering we kind of knew a hurricane was coming and you would have thought someone might have told the National Guard to get ready...

But the comment I was actually picking out was when you, Mav, said you were proud to share a racial chromosome marker whatever. The "We're Black Together" thing. Which I see all the time at my school. Black teachers hanging out and saying things that I could never get away with saying. Black teachers sticking up for each other and mysterious priviledges or promotions being given by black administrators to black teachers. Students not getting the appropriate punishment because they're black and the administrator is too. Not that it is any better when whites or anyone else does it.
[User Picture]From: chrismaverick Date: September 4th, 2005 - 12:41 am (Link)
ah, but see now you are lumping things together. You're right, I did say I was proud to be associated with him as a black man. And I meant it. See, I disagree with your thesis. I think that its problematic assuming that pride == prejudice. Most black people feel that way, and that's what ddk is likely responding to. I think you are lumping pride in our differences, which I consider a very positive thing to lead to secret conspiratorial priviledges and such. And that's not what I was doing. As I said, I'm on the record with stating that I have a problem with the implementation of affirmative action. I am against hiring quotas and academic admissions quotas (that said, in that they exist I am completely willing to take advantage of them. Because I am a hypocrit). If I'm against public special treatment due to race, then it stands to reason that I am likely against it in private as well. Which I am. No matter what the race or creed or other group.

On the contrary, what I said was that I was proud of him. And I equivocated that pride to race. Which is also true. What makes our world interesting. What makes people interesting is that they ARE different. What causes discrimination (both positive and negative) is a lack of understanding of those differences. I feel that celebrating those differences and being proud of your heritage is the first step towards being accepting of other people's. Only then can we learn the all important lesson of I'm ok, you're ok. Ignoring the differences isn't going to make them go away.
[User Picture]From: marmal8 Date: September 4th, 2005 - 01:20 am (Link)
I think there's a very fine line between noticing/celebrating differences and preferential treatement. People can be racist on a sliding scale. Too much pride in "your people" and then people perceive you as prejudiced against those who are not "your people," whether or not it's actually so. I do find the whole issue of learning about and celebrating differences problematic, though. I would much prefer a "celebrate your heritage" month to a specifically labeled one for a particular group.

Sort of related...I find that my kids are extraordinarily sensitive to race, so much so that they have the idea that even mentioning someone's race is racist, and I have to explain that it is perfectly okay to notice that someone is Hispanic, but not okay to be mean to them because of that. (But then they call everyone "n---a" and don't even understand the word. So complicated.)
[User Picture]From: jameel Date: September 3rd, 2005 - 12:18 pm (Link)
Holy shit!
[User Picture]From: chrismaverick Date: September 3rd, 2005 - 12:49 pm (Link)
yeah, you should try to catch the broadcast or see if you can grab the speech off the net (and if you do, get me a copy). It was nice to see, because he said a bunch more than the article let on. He talked about feeling guilty for turning the TV off because he couldn't handle the devastation. He talked about calling his business manager to see how much he could personally donate. And he said what was reported. But the way he says it is just very impassioned.
[User Picture]From: jameel Date: September 3rd, 2005 - 01:24 pm (Link)
[User Picture]From: chrismaverick Date: September 3rd, 2005 - 01:27 pm (Link)
thanx, yo.
[User Picture]From: wooble Date: September 3rd, 2005 - 10:37 pm (Link)
I'm waiting for the White House to issue a statement that Bush isn't a racist (after all, he likes Condi Rice just fine, and he liked Colin Powell before it turned out he was a terrorist sympathizer), but that he hates all poor people equally.

Also, fully anticipating all future charity events to be shown with a 10 second delay.
[User Picture]From: chrismaverick Date: September 3rd, 2005 - 10:56 pm (Link)
nah... say what you will about the Bush administration, but they aren't stupid. They are masters at spinning the political media machine. In the grand scheme of things, Kanye West is nobody. He's the hip hop flavor of the month who has shot himself in the foot as far as his crossover career goes. Or possibly not. Maybe no one will notice. But its not going to be a big thing. And Rove has got to realize that the strongest defense against Kanye's comments is simply to ignore him. After all, the "liberal media" is already going out of their way to disavow him. The works is practically doing itself.

So that charity event was already being broadcast on a delay. Its just that the person working the button was just sitting there waiting to hear swear words and was too stupid to realize that West had gone into business for himself.
[User Picture]From: wooble Date: September 4th, 2005 - 01:26 pm (Link)
Check out the top song and top album on iTMS.
[User Picture]From: chrismaverick Date: September 4th, 2005 - 02:01 pm (Link)
Good! That said, I really don't think that's why he did it. Kanye has always been kind of outspoken. But I'm glad he's number 1. I like him.
[User Picture]From: mokatz Date: September 4th, 2005 - 03:18 pm (Link)
I was just watching CBS's Sunday Morning and they had a black female commentator who basically said the exact same thing as Kayne, albeit in a much more elloquent fashion. And they tastefully waited till AFTER she said her piece to talk about Rhenquist's death. Kudos to CBS.
[User Picture]From: chrismaverick Date: September 4th, 2005 - 03:29 pm (Link)
I actually don't have a problem with leading with the Rhenquist story. Meet the Press did that, talked about him for 3 min. and then devoted the rest of the broadcast to talking about the flood. I think that's a fine way to handle it too. But I do agree with you that its good that CBS (and NBC) are prioritizing the two stories the right way. They'll be plenty of time to dwell on the supreme court when Bush nominates Ashcroft as chief justice next week.
[User Picture]From: glenns Date: September 11th, 2005 - 06:54 am (Link)


Wow Mav... I was bored out of my skull sitting in the DDT Office (no show today plus big storm) and I gotta say this is the best LJ discussion I have ever read. Everybody`s input is superinformed and well written. Definately brightened my otherwise boring perusal if the internet.

My comments will be no where near as good (too many bumps etc.). My thoughts on the issue of race are that there has to be a happy medium. I think that if it is over emphazied (spelling?) it creates unnecessary and painful division, but to ignore it is also folly because of issues like the Katrina Crisis.
It is hard to watch the news because the pictures are blunt evidence of
our lacking, or worse our ardent racism. We either our so stupid we can`t plan for a crisis that gives us all the warning in the world or we as a people literally do not give two fucks about our own if they have a different skin tone. Either way we are up shit`s creek.
We either shield ourselves with our culture forming divison and animosity, or we pretend it doesn`t exist and get walked all over. My wife and I are Jewish (her by birth me by choice) and I find myself adament and passionate about that part of me that seperates me from some and joins me with others. I want to defend the right I have to be a part of that group. I have observed that many jews are ashamed or hide their relegion, but I think it is what allows intolerance to
occur. At the same time I try not to be overly sensitive and realise that some things are not attacks on my wife and myself. Man am I rambling.
Fuck it! I can`t write a conclusion cause I have no answer, but I think this whole discussions is tremendous. Kudos!
[User Picture]From: chrismaverick Date: September 11th, 2005 - 09:19 pm (Link)


that really is the part that bugs me. If all the claims that it wasn't racism are true, then that means it really is just incredible base incompetance, and that doesn't make me feel any better. "No, no, no, we aren't racist. If it had been Palm Springs, everyone would have died too!" Oh yay!

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