July 7th, 2006

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12:35 am - on appropriate apparel...

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on appropriate apparel... - graffiti.maverick — LiveJournal

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[User Picture]From: jameel Date: July 7th, 2006 - 11:33 am (Link)
I am a nudist. However, I'm also a realist, and the reality is that society pretty much as a whole requires clothing. I don't put half the thought into my attire that some people do, but I do try to look decent.

Funny that you should bring up the practice of piercing the ears of babies. I think that it's a cruel practice. Obviously, I'm not against body modifications, but I am against cosmetic surgery done without consent unless it's required to save the patient's life, and babies can't consent.
[User Picture]From: chrismaverick Date: July 7th, 2006 - 02:23 pm (Link)
I'm torn on the piercing infants thing. While in general, I agree with you on the consent issue, I also have to acknowledge the rights of parents to consent on the behalf of the infants. I think ear piercing for instance is relatively unobtrusive and non-invasive. How do you feel about circumcision on male babies, for instance? What about cosmetic surgery that isn't necessary to save a baby's life but might be a good idea for providing the baby with a relatively normal life. Like repairing a cleft pallate. Or fixing a burn or scar, for instance.
[User Picture]From: jameel Date: July 7th, 2006 - 02:40 pm (Link)
Ear piercing is causing unnecessary pain to an being incapable of consent, and I just can't get behind that, any more than I can get behind tattooing infants or binding their feet.

I am squarely in the anti-circumcision camp as far as infants go. It's the removal of a perfectly healthy and functional piece of an infant's body in the name of social inertia and so-called health benefits. I'm not going to call CYS or anything when someone does have their child circumcised, but I do think that it's wrong. One should minimize the pain to benefit ratio for one's children.

Your other examples are fixing things that are broken, and I can get behind that. Pretend that I included "fixing things that are broken" in my previous post.
[User Picture]From: chrismaverick Date: July 7th, 2006 - 05:38 pm (Link)
so when is old enough to consent to an ear piercing? I can see a three year old seeing someone with earrings and then asking. Is that ok? I mean, I can also see a three year old asking for a tattoo, and I'm thinking I'd be against that. But where is the line?

I can't see a three year old asking for a circumcision, but I also think that if you're going to get it done, you're better off getting it done at a few days old where you don't remember the pain as opposed to consenting to it at 18 when.... ow!
[User Picture]From: jameel Date: July 7th, 2006 - 05:46 pm (Link)
As with most things, there is no line where anyone younger is too young. Does that three-year-old understand when you describe things to him? If so, he's probably old enough to make the decision to get his ears pierced. Chances are slim that he understands the concept of "forever", so that's a likely "no" on the tattoos and circumcision. As a matter of fact, I'd likely make a child of mine wait until they're adolescent before getting circumcised, and he'd have to have a reason better than "all the other kids are cut!" or "this girl wants me to get snipped."

Piercings can be removed. Reversing tattoos is expensive and painful. Reversing a circumcision is... extremely uncomfortable.
[User Picture]From: chrismaverick Date: July 7th, 2006 - 07:14 pm (Link)
[User Picture]From: marmal8 Date: July 7th, 2006 - 07:05 pm (Link)
Pain is momentary. Personally I don't relish trying to keep a surgical wound clean when it happens to be in the diaper region (that is, poop central). It's enough work keeping that area clean without having to be careful of the wound.
[User Picture]From: chrismaverick Date: July 7th, 2006 - 07:15 pm (Link)
Eh, its a big enough job cleaning a baby anyway. At the point where you're changing a diaper, I don't think it's notably any harder.
[User Picture]From: marmal8 Date: July 7th, 2006 - 07:20 pm (Link)
It'd require a more gentle touch though. I just don't see the sense in having a big boo-boo so close to the poop. It seems an unnecessary risk of infection, especially when circumcision is totally unnecessary as a health issue.
[User Picture]From: pyrtolin Date: July 7th, 2006 - 03:46 pm (Link)
Surgical repairs to defects that can and will cause problems are more on the dis of life saving.

Circumcision, on the other hand, falls well past ear-piercing as unecessary and cruel to inflict on someone without consent.

The question becoms more tricky when you come to trying to correct irregular sex organs- the convential wisdom says to pick one and correct, but there seems to be more and more indication that, unless there's a real functional problem, it's better to wait till the child is old enough to choose the identity that they want.
[User Picture]From: chrismaverick Date: July 7th, 2006 - 05:44 pm (Link)
clearly a fringe case... but yes, those are interesting thoughts...

I dunno, I think a huge part of identity is chained up in gender, and I wouldn't feel right about leaving that part of a child's life open until such time as they were able to make their own choice. If I ever had to make that choice, I'd think I'd have to choose one and hope for the best. Hopefully I'll never have to decide such a thing.
[User Picture]From: blk Date: July 7th, 2006 - 07:00 pm (Link)
You wouldn't feel right leaving gender choice up to the child, but you would be OK picking and risking them going through a serious gender identity crisis later in life? To me, that feels too much like forcing all children to be right handed, instead of waiting for them to decide.

[User Picture]From: chrismaverick Date: July 7th, 2006 - 07:17 pm (Link)
I don't know that I'm OK with it. It's more trying to decide between the lesser of two evils. I don't know that I really like either choice. And I don't know for sure which way I would go. I was just thinking about it in the moment. As I said, HOVA willing, it's a choice I'd never have to worry about.

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