July 7th, 2006


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12:35 am - on appropriate apparel...

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on appropriate apparel... - graffiti.maverick

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Comments:


[User Picture]From: chrismaverick Date: July 7th, 2006 - 06:59 pm (Link)
I don't disagree with what you said, but I have two problems with it.

1) The two things are mutually exclusive. Putting on a sexy outfit and making men gawk doesn't stop you from getting published. Nor does getting published make you any less sexy. Therefore, why relate them at all. Is being published more important than learning to drive? Or enjoying jazz? Or liking sushi? There's no good way to even make those relations.

2) I think your scale is off. By publishing, I assume you meant, like in a psychology journal. Yes, that's harder for you to do than wearing a short skirt and getting some guy walking down the street to look at you. But I publish myself on the internet all the time. That's trivial. To look at it another way. Its hard for you to get published, sure. But as I am discussing with akiramich above, Viki's goal wasn't "get men to state" it was "be a WWE Diva Search finalist." I'd argue that its far easier to get your thesis published than it is to win that, or even make it into the semi-finals.

I'm not saying that a person has to be the most beautiful or the most intelligent. I'm saying why not aspire to both? Venus Williams for instance, has done both modeling and has studied interior design (and owns a company that does that). And yet, I expect she'd say that winning 5 Grand Slam tennis championships was harder than either of those things.
[User Picture]From: marmal8 Date: July 7th, 2006 - 07:31 pm (Link)
While it is pretty easy to wear a short skirt, for people with weight issues it is extremely difficult to look good in that short skirt. I have a colleague who recently has lost a lot of weight (at least 50 lbs). We compliment her all the time. Constantly. She loves it. Not in a hooting sort of way, in a genuine way. For many people looking good is an accomplishment.
[User Picture]From: beststephi Date: July 7th, 2006 - 07:52 pm (Link)
No, I wasn't saying you can't be proud of your looks! I was saying that I value looking good less than other things because it's less effort for me. If I had put a lot of effort into losing weight, I would be proud of myself too!
[User Picture]From: marmal8 Date: July 7th, 2006 - 08:10 pm (Link)
I didn't say you said...! I agree with Mav that the two are not mutually exclusive. I do think a lot of our valuing looks is not on the conscious level. I know I try to not care about looks, but I do react differently to...less model-like...people.
[User Picture]From: beststephi Date: July 7th, 2006 - 08:31 pm (Link)
Oops. sorry. Very confusing. So now you're saying they are mutually exclusive values, since they're at different levels of consciousness..? I guess I could see that, as applying to others (not oneself).
[User Picture]From: marmal8 Date: July 7th, 2006 - 08:40 pm (Link)
I don't think being at different levels of consciousness makes them mutually exclusive. I don't think they have anything to do with one another. Whether I value intelligence really has nothing to do with whether I value looks. Whether I value one more than the other...I don't like to make top ten lists and rank things. I don't see the utility in it.
[User Picture]From: chrismaverick Date: July 7th, 2006 - 08:28 pm (Link)
but, if its not much effort, why not do it? (i'm not talking about you specifically, but feel free to answer for yourself)

The comfort argument you make elsewhere is certainly an important one, but I mean beyond that. There is a very real feeling that "I don't want people to pay attention to my looks" but that doesn't address the point that I and jacquez are making above. People are going to pay attention. And if that's the case, then shouldn't you use that to your advantage instead of having it work to your disadvantage?
[User Picture]From: beststephi Date: July 7th, 2006 - 08:41 pm (Link)
I don't think that for my job, looks matter as much as for probably most other jobs, where you meet more people. So I would rather spend the extra time sleeping or getting into work earlier than doing the extra grooming. I might put more effort into grooming if I thought it would boost me in my career. In fact, I probably would, given that I do tend to dress better and wear makeup when I go to conferences.
[User Picture]From: chrismaverick Date: July 7th, 2006 - 09:19 pm (Link)
see, that's a different point of view. And that rationale makes perfect sense to me. This is quite different than what I was getting at about "should it matter" and "should I dress down to make people pay more attention to me."

Lately you've been paying a lot more attention to fashion and that has been making you both, look much sexier and not stick out as much as you did when you were always trying to defeminize yourself at work. And be honest, aren't you at least a little happier because of it? Don't you feel better about yourself? There was nothing wrong with you before, but doesn't "feeling" actively pretty, make you feel a little more right?
[User Picture]From: marmal8 Date: July 7th, 2006 - 08:43 pm (Link)
Just the other day I was thinking I need to make a t-shirt that says "Stop looking at me." Because I'm tired of people looking at me. Not people that are going to be an advantage or disadvantage. Just people on the street.
[User Picture]From: chrismaverick Date: July 7th, 2006 - 09:15 pm (Link)
and you acknowledge of course that that's going to make people look at you more, right? And not take you as seriously as they otherwise might.

See, that's kinda my point (to a less silly degree) with the idea of deminizing your appearance.
[User Picture]From: marmal8 Date: July 7th, 2006 - 09:50 pm (Link)
Of course it will.

I don't really care how seriously random people I pass on the street take me. It's not an issue.

I don't think it's silly that I want people to stop looking at me. It's very serious. Everyone needs to get the hell away from me. I hate you all. Die die die!
[User Picture]From: chrismaverick Date: July 8th, 2006 - 07:35 am (Link)
you're going to feel really really bad if I die in the middle of the night.
From: marmal8 Date: July 8th, 2006 - 04:57 pm (Link)
From: chrismaverick Date: July 8th, 2006 - 05:08 pm (Link)
[User Picture]From: beststephi Date: July 7th, 2006 - 07:43 pm (Link)
) The two things are mutually exclusive. Putting on a sexy outfit and making men gawk doesn't stop you from getting published. Nor does getting published make you any less sexy. Therefore, why relate them at all. Is being published more important than learning to drive? Or enjoying jazz? Or liking sushi? There's no good way to even make those relations.

I guess by "value", I meant "makes me feel good about myself", which is different from being (practically) "important", or "enjoying" something. I definitely enjoy eating sushi more than I enjoy writing.

And the two are not mutually exclusive. I purposely dress for work to be comfortable (and sexy outfits tend not to be very comfortable), because when I'm comfortable, I'm more focused and more productive.

2) I think your scale is off. By publishing, I assume you meant, like in a psychology journal. Yes, that's harder for you to do than wearing a short skirt and getting some guy walking down the street to look at you. But I publish myself on the internet all the time. That's trivial. To look at it another way. Its hard for you to get published, sure. But as I am discussing with akiramich above, Viki's goal wasn't "get men to state" it was "be a WWE Diva Search finalist." I'd argue that its far easier to get your thesis published than it is to win that, or even make it into the semi-finals.

OK, fine. That was the first example that popped into my head. But it's still true at a lower level.

You changed the definition of "easy" into "likely to happen". Sure, that's true that the probability is lower for the diva search. But I think it's more psychologically healthy basing your values on things you can control through effort rather than on some random person's opinion. Those things tend to be more stable.

I'm not saying that a person has to be the most beautiful or the most intelligent. I'm saying why not aspire to both? Venus Williams for instance, has done both modeling and has studied interior design (and owns a company that does that). And yet, I expect she'd say that winning 5 Grand Slam tennis championships was harder than either of those things.

I think you mean Serena. I wonder what she'd say she's most proud of and why.
[User Picture]From: chrismaverick Date: July 7th, 2006 - 08:47 pm (Link)
1) That's not a real correlation. I mean, yes, on some nebulous level, eating sushi may effect your work habits, but that doesn't mean that it really has anything to do with you getting published in any real manner. Also, for instance you used to think it was inappropriate for you to wear jeans to work (I know you've since changed your mind). That wasn't a comfort decision.

The other issue is that sexy doesn't necessarilly imply uncomfortable. And also, in this respect I'm not even specifically talking about being sexy. I'm not talking about whether or lot you should wear leather miniskirts and lacey corsets to work. I'm more talking about whether or not you should wear feminine, nicely tailored clothes, or ripped jeans, ratty t-shirts or dumpy poorly fitted "I'm trying to look less feminine" clothes. And I'm not even saying there is something wrong with not wanting to look feminine. That's actually fine. I'm saying that if you make that choice, then there must be a reason and "because people shouldn't pay attention to my looks" is a cop-out reason (and counterproductive, because people aren't going to say "wow, that person who may or may not be female and it doesn't matter anyway is really smart" they're going to say "wow, that person is ugly and styleless.")

2) right, but if you can control how you look. I wasn't confusing easy and likely to happen. I was trying to point out that you were equating them which I didn't think was fair. At a grand scale (winning the nobel prize for psychology vs. winning the diva search) there is just as much random chance and subjective opinion in either case. On a small scale (being a good student, being an attractive person) its much more objective and controllable. Fashion sense is plenty stable. At least as much as academic achievement. Subjective, maybe. But that doesn't make it any less real. I think I can definitively say that Cindy Crawford has much better fashion sense than Bill Gates just as easily as I can definitively say that Maya Angelou is a much better poet than Jerome Bettis. As discussed with pyrotylin above, I think its kind of a cop-out to say it isn't. Or it doesn't matter. I think that with looks, people are sensitive and so they like to pretend it doesn't matter. But you enjoy watching American Idol (and the clone shows), right? Isn't singing ability subjective on some level? But would you discourage Evelyn from wanting to be a successful singer or dancer? Then why discourage her from wanting to be a successful model or beauty queen? Is that making any sense?

And no, I meant Venus. I looked it up. I was actually going to say Serena originally, but she's a fashion designer not an interior designer, and I couldn't find any proof that she actually went to school for it (she may have, I dunno). Plus, I liked that interior design and modeling were unrelated, a opposed to fashion and modeling.
 

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