August 24th, 2006

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08:45 am - on Hooters and hypocrisy...

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on Hooters and hypocrisy... - graffiti.maverick — LiveJournal

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[User Picture]From: sonbanon Date: August 24th, 2006 - 08:15 pm (Link)
I know some women who (in college) went there to try to meet men (one time) and succeeded. I think that's the funniest thing ever.

I have never been there but when I used to work in the offices at Station Square, I used to like to watch the girls doing promotions--like they'd stand out front and hula hoop. I've heard their fries are good.

I don't want this to come off the wrong way because I'm sure people will jump on me for it, so I'm prefacing it at that. But when I felt a lot better about my body, I thought places like Hooters were less sexist than today. That's not to say that having a bad body image means that to everyone nor in entirety to me, but I think I get kinda... jealous? envious?... the older (and plumper) I get. It has a lot to do with our society's values of the youthful look (and youth in general). It's very hard to be a woman in this society. Even the best of men sometimes lay that pressure on (not on purpose, mind you). Of course, "no one can make you feel inferior without your consent", as Eleanor Roosevelt would say.

Hooters might be perceived as less sexist if there was this Cocks restaurant... but how many women would really go there? I mean, for bachelorette parties, etc., but I just can't see me and my friends (even those very open-minded about sex and sexuality) going there for dinner on a Tuesday night just cause.

Strip clubs are not sexist, IMO.
[User Picture]From: chrismaverick Date: August 24th, 2006 - 11:33 pm (Link)
But you make an interesting point, one that I agree with and have often stated before. At least I think you're making the point, if I understand you correctly. It's not really the men who are being sexist. It's the women. The general belief you are referring to is that because men may like looking at skinny girls with big boobs they must somehow think less of the women who don't look like that. Women claim that Hooters, Playboy, strip clubs and porn make men objectify women and that they give women a bad body image, but in reality, I know very few men who say "I won't fuck a girl unless she has DD cups and is under 110 lbs." We are men, we are pigs. What we mostly say is something more like "I won't fuck a girl unless she says yes when I ask her." I think its really silly that people (men too, but especially women, it seems) get so jealous of other people for physical traits that they want to discourage other people displaying those traits. Are you 110 lbs with DDs? No. So you don't want anyone to be. But do you have a 175 IQ? Do you think people who do shouldn't be allowed to be on Jeopardy?

I dunno... I'm rambling but I think (i hope) you're following my point.
[User Picture]From: sonbanon Date: August 25th, 2006 - 12:26 am (Link)
I like how upfront you are; it's good to know you are real and honest.

At one point in my life, I'd probably be angry and irritated by your comments because your comments are exactly why there is so much female angst music and art out there :p

Both genders can be sexist, sure, against both (all?) genders. I am of the firm belief, however, that it's male driven, that because men ogle and drool over the 110lb DD-cup woman, that other women feel they need to keep up. (Not all, but some.) It's hurtful and a damn shame. If women just wanted to be fucked (because, as you say, men will fuck anything consenting--and some will even fuck without consent, but that's a different issue), none of this would exist. I don't believe women just want to be fucked; they want to be admired and appreciated. When a man is out there appreciating the 110lb DD-cup and you aren't in that category, it breeds competition and leads to an unhealthy self-image.

There's no resolution on this: I don't think it will ever change, and I'm not even sure it should because to some degree, the competition is healthy and necessary. What needs to change is how men treat women (maybe not change, but what should be in place always is respect, regardless of the cup size) and how women feel about themselves, regardless of how they look. I don't know how to make that happen on a more widespread basis. As an aside note, it will be interesting to see what the supposed increase in obesity does to change what is most admired.

This isn't a new argument you are hearing, I'm sure.

For the record, I don't think Hooters is sexist, I don't have an issue with any man--including any man I'm involved with--going there, looking at porn, visiting strip clubs, etc. What I think is sexist is the attitude about it, what it breeds. If it weren't Hooters or a nudey bar or a porno mag, it would be a painting, or a statue, or something else. What matters is that I know I'm loved for who I am and appreciated for how I look....

I, btw, was 110lbs most of my adult life and not DD, but I think I've got a nice rack. I will put this in caps because it counts: I WAS TREATED MUCH DIFFERENTLY BY MEN THEN THAN I AM NOW. Perhaps age comes into play, too. Perhaps they smell my self-esteem, which was in some ways heartier then and in some ways heartier now but has dwindled some about my appearance? Regardless, what matters to me are the people who love me all the same because they love and appreciate me, not my hip to waist to boob ratio. My wish is for all women to have that, and to some degree, I think that needs to start with how men act.

*off my soapbox* :)
[User Picture]From: chrismaverick Date: August 25th, 2006 - 02:29 pm (Link)
don't get me wrong. I'm not saying men are innocent. It's my general opinion that people in tend to suck except when providing specific examples to the contrary. Also, I tend to exaggerate in the name of humor quite often here. For instance, men don't just want women for what's between their legs. That's an exaggeration. Sometimes they need someone to cook dinner too. ;-)

Anyway, yes, I acknowledge that you were probably treated differently being skinny with a nice rack than you are being heavier (with a nice rack... I'm a boy... I notice). And well you should be. People celebrate that which is "above average." They do that with all things. Beauty is just one of them. Say you were morbidly obese. Does that make you any less lovable? I'd say no. Say you were mentally retarded. Are you less lovable? I say no again. What about if you throw like a girl? No. But saying that the 110 lb. DD girl can't make a living off her "gifts" or that she shouldn't be admired them is akin to saying that Carl Sagan or Ben Rothlisberger shouldn't be admired for their gifts. I think Carmen Electra is one of the hottest women on the planet. They haven't even invented names for all of the deviant things I'd like to do in the bedroom with her. But does that mean that a woman needs to look like Carmen to feel good about herself (or for me to love her). I say no. She may feel different, but there's nothing I can really do about that. I mean, I can be reassuring and such, but at the end of the day, its a personal self-esteem issue that I just can't really control.

That's what I meant about women being sexist. For as shallow as we pretend men are and enlightened as we pretend women are (stereotypically), men don't (stereotypically) get jealous of such things. Its women who (stereotypically) do. And for the most part that jealousy is centered around the visual. As I said before, at the end of the day its not just visuals (or cooking as I joked) that make up a person. I love Steph for a countless variety of reasons, and if I said how she looks wasn't part of that, I'd be lying. But just because I might look at Carmen Electra, a Playboy Playmate, a Hooters girl or you and think "damn, she's hot!" that doesn't actually effect Steph's (or any other women's) hotness rating in the slightest. Any more than it makes Steph any stupider, less creative, or less atheletic that I admire a great writer, or actor or football player. The competition only exists in her mind.

(By the way, Steph, I'm only using you as an example because you happen to be my SO and I am speaking. I don't mean to call you out any more specifically than any other (stereotypical) woman)

Curiously, I don't think it plays out as much in the reverse gender situation. I know Steph thinks Johnny Depp is hot, and despite how I pretend to feel, it doesn't really bother me. I may think she's delusional, but I'm not "jealous" of him. And I wouldn't be jealous or threatened by her eating at "Cocks" either.
[User Picture]From: beststephi Date: August 25th, 2006 - 03:09 am (Link)
(responding to above): I'm actually less offended by Hooters etc. now than I was in my early 20's, say. I think I've gotten desensitized throughout the years.

(not in response to above, general comment): But I still just can't accept (much less be willing to go to and finance) places where men are served by women in various stages of undress. It still strikes me as demeaning to women, and honestly, I hope I never change my mind about that. Sure, men may be being exploited for money, but to me, that's far better than exploiting your own body and dignity.

[User Picture]From: chrismaverick Date: August 25th, 2006 - 02:41 pm (Link)
Note: I know I can't change your mind, as we've had this conversation before. Honestly, I'm not even trying, but this is my blog, so I feel its necessary to respond to everything so that I am really getting all of my points across to the audience.

See, that's the attitude that I find offensive. Who are you to tell the Hooters waitress that her job is demeaning. She's in the service industry mixed with the entertainment industry. Is being a stripper demeaning? You have friends who are strippers. No one holds a gun to their heads. Is it more demeaning as a male stripper? What about being a professional wrestler. I get into the ring and beat on other people and let them beat on me for the entertainment of others.

Taking it a step further is it demeaning to be a garbage man? Or to be the guy who cleans out outhouses? What about to be a cognitive psychologist?

See to me, comments like what you're saying essentially boil down to "this is demeaning because I don't want to do it, as it is beneath me." But that's a personal feeling. I don't want to be a software engineer. I've tried it. I hate it. It makes me feel worthless and shitty. But I can't say that sui66iy has a demeaning career. Your feelings are altruistic, sure, but at the end of the day you are making a value judgement about someone's career based on your own feelings of what "dignity" are, and to me that seems unfair. It's akin to saying that "I hope I am never ok with abortion because its a crime against god and those women are ruining their lives." I think being pro-life for yourself is fine. Hoisting it on someone else is wrong. The same is true about being conservative.
[User Picture]From: beststephi Date: August 25th, 2006 - 03:10 pm (Link)
My own personal opinion os that sexuality is special, and should be shared with only those you choose to share it with. When you are paid to strip or whatever, then you no longer are in control of that, and you end up "sharing" it with whomever happens to wander into the building. It is this loss of control over such an intimate part of our being that I find potentially harmful over some period of time (and there's literature to this effect), especially for people who tend to have less control in general in their lives. I know other people have other beliefs, and that's fine. I'm simply sharing mine here.
[User Picture]From: chrismaverick Date: August 25th, 2006 - 05:03 pm (Link)
several points here:

1) Well, most strippers will argue with your claim that they aren't in control. They'd tell you that they are choosing to be up on stage and that they feel more in control when they're doing it than any other time. I'm not saying you aren't right (or wrong). I'm just saying that the flaw is you are applying your value system to someone else. That's why I likened it to the abortion issue.

2) Strippers were sort of a divergence from the prime issue, which was Hooters, which I would argue is a far cry from stripping. That's why I was saying I think its unfair of you to judge it without ever having been there.

3) As for sexuality being private, I find that interesting because you don't seem to really feel that way about everything else. Let's grant for a moment that Hooters and strip joints are sexual (a concession I'm not willing to make overall, but will for the sake of argument). How come that's the single thing that needs to be protected or not shared or whatever. An individual making the choice to not share any specific aspect of themselves with the public (I don't like wrestling fans to know details about my private life for instance) I grant, but why is sexuality the specific thing that you think should be private. Why is a theme restuarant that features the wreckage of the plane Buddy Holly died in or even just BB King's first guitar more appropriate than one that features girls in tight shirts?

For the record, I do respect your opinions... this is more my attempt to understand them.

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